In September 2014, LooserRounds posted an article titled FBI Training Division Justifies 9mm Caliber Selection. Leave it to a bunch of idiot Marines to bring a pistol to a rifle fight. knows the sound of a 9m they may say o well Ill chance it but a 40 cal. If you can fire without remorse. I like my Colt GOV. Not aim shoot. The .223 weighs in at 55 grains, while the .22 is usually 45 grains or smaller. If you know firearms and know how to properly use them than the caliber shouldnt matter. What do you Think of the S&W Shield? Any round can accomplish that, even the much-maligned .22. We put our money behind the 9mm round fired by an extremely well-trained marksman carrying a Glock 19, Mannweiler told Marine Corps Times. If the Government is involved in any way, money will change hands. Rounds were literally ranked on the basis of temporary cavity volume, with penetration and permanent cavity ignored. Got to love 45 in Army Guard 21 years. This post has been updated to include information released by the FBI regarding the weapon used in the shooting. I have formed the opinion that the 9mm is adequate, the 40 S&W is better and the 45 is best. There is enough blood within the brain at any time to support conscious, voluntary action for 10 to 15 seconds even in the event of the destruction of the heart itself. Now Im not a scientist, and comparisons of expanded 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP projectiles shows what appears to be little or insignificant difference in diameter; so I cant explain the results perhaps bullet weight plays a role too. I daily now carry a 9 mm. When fragmentation occurs, the permanent cavity expands rapidly and dramatically. He was a deputy sheriff. You do your failure drill. are 9mm rounds substantially more accurate than their larger caliber brethren? Officers carried them in case their security was breached, and when the enemy was upon them, the kock down power was vital in saving their life. But this doesnt mean that a 22 rimfire is the best caliber or even a good choice for head shots. also carry a lcp ruger 380 in a desantis pocket holster, covers the trigger guard real nice. After reading your article, I had to 1.) His analysis is paramount to someone telling me the 7mm Rem Mag will outperform the 8mm Rem Mag. I have a rock island arms 1911 45, a Walther p22 22cal., A heritage rough rider 22 6 inch barrel. 9mm capacity! Remember, people dont have health bars. 12 shots fired. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); 2023 Concealed Carry Inc. All Rights Reserved. I like both, so it is a matter of how balanced and comfortable is it when in use ? Also we are talking pistols. I have used both calibers personally in combat, and I can say unequivocally and without any doubt whatsoever that the .45 cal DEFINITELY has much more knockdown power than the 9mm which due to its higher velocity tends to punch right through the assailant leaving him wounded but still on his feet and able to return fire. Both really do not muster up for the Marines. What I have seen over the years on this debate, is that the majority, not all, prefer the 9mm due to its minimal recoil, magazine capacity and concealability. But I do like Cor- Bon, and Glaser POWRBALL BY COR-BON. If Agent Doves bullet had entered Platts heart, he would have perished quickly, before launching his life-ending assault. In this dangerous time period, an officers adversary can continue his deadly actions against an officer. Most of these wanna be gangsters are cowards and are used to shooting at people who dont have guns to shoot back. WebWhen youre in the midst of dealing with an attack, the reduction in blood flow to your hands (along with the chemical changes in your body) will likely result in an increase in your pain threshold. Its proven knowledge. Handgun cartridges just dont do that. In the end public opinion and perception has a great deal to do with defense decisions. Yes, Hugh, I have shot both rounds into a human and I can say this. Both are great calibers. In one case study of a 24-year-old man struck in the chest by a .40-caliber hollow-point pistol round, doctors found organ damage outside the direct path of the It makes a bigger hole. For example, a shot through the side of the body must penetrate between 10 to 12 inches to hit the heart. Going back and reading over your original post, by the by, I can only say this: Also, there are documented cases from New York and other law enforcement agencies of officers shooting criminals and having their bullets pass entirely through the criminal and striking a civilian bystander, thus wounding someone not engaged by the police officer. To answer the question which is better 9mm or 45APC. I am former law enforcement from Florida, depending on the situation I actually carry both my Ruger American 9 mm and the Ruger American 45 caliber ACP oh, not at the same time lol. Since the mid-2000s, gunmakers catering to consumers who increasingly buy weapons for self-defense have produced fewer of the small-caliber handguns like the .25 or .32, and, A .22 will kill you, but it wont blow your head apart, he said. I also am a NRA Certified Instructor and gunsmith in Colorado. Hollow points are designed to rapidly expand after hitting a target, causing as much damage as possible and reducing the chance of overpenetration. I have also recorded a few single-shot kills from a .45ACP, one from as far As might be expected, larger-diameter bullets produce more devastating wound cavities and have a greater likelihood of striking vital organs. The two calibers no one wants to get tagged by . Shooting survivors and their caregivers describe a lifetime of chronic pain, repeated surgeries years after being shot, and challenges to everyday living that come from losing parts of vital organs, like a woman who has to buy her son expensive protein shakes after he lost much of his stomach. After all, its SIZE thats everything, right? I like it and am very comfortable pulling the trigger in as high stress of a situation as training allows. This includes victims shot by suspetcs and suspects shot by our officers. 10 Best ways to Make Money on Social Media and not waste time. Thats what I pack in the deep woods. I can say with great certainty that many animals dont just simply fall over and die. A bigger hole is better than a smaller hole and more holes is better than one hole. I read this after selling my XD Tactical in .40 to a friend and then settled on .45 GAP. A round put through the central nervous system of a target is likely to be incapacitating regardless of the caliber chosen. Riley Bowman is the Director of Training at ConcealedCarry.com and the Host of the Concealed Carry Podcast. I also do not understand why the M&P was disqualified, but it could be that other manufacturers guns have already been eliminated as well. You can either hit a target or not that simple. If you take it in the field and get it dirty, see how easily serviceable that weapon is then. We argued more capacity modern rounds ect ect. Project: Aftermath Wiki. WOUND BALLISTICS - Motion and Effects of Projectiles in the I have never personally tested 9mm long range, but I have seen 45 Auto results. If you have been hit with any kind of bullet large, fast, expanding, or otherwise please, Gunman Used Heavily Restricted Assault Weapon in California UPS Shooting. I just bought a S&W M&P 9 Shield. Copyright 2023 Police1. High-velocity We can argue 9 vs 45. But I think the bigger point to be made is that it would not be wise to make a decision on a pistol or caliber simply because it is bigger, and therefore more manly. It should be made based on the merits and actual performance of the different calibers and/or pistols. For the spray and pray that they teach nowadays the high cap 9mm is good. Using the right bullet is where it counts. Over time, conditions that damage the liver can lead to scarring (cirrhosis), which can lead to liver failure, a life-threatening condition. The damage was far too extensive. .45 ACP damage increased from 35-40-65 to 35-40-75, and minimum damage decreased from 60% to 50%. If I am just going to the range with my son, I prefer the .45. While the classic .45 ACP round is large, its also relatively slow, with an average velocity of 850-900 FPS for most types of ammo. The amount of energy a bullet radiates into a target is determined by a simple formula taught in high school: Its the product of one half the projectiles mass times the square of the velocity. Sad. The victim died immediately. It may take 2 rounds to take someone down, but the shooter will have a lot easier follow up shots with the smaller 9mm. The FBI agents had loaded jacketed hollow point bullets into their firearms. Good job Chris and the rest of you but remember when you give gun advise target shooting and self defense shooting are two different scenarios and one can get you deadyou cant shoot my gun as good as me but you can shoot your gun because its the best one for you. If I were young I would consider a compact 45, but at 73. So Marines are now trained to simply kill them. The 45 1911 did just that. One person might be able to control themselves and squeeze off a headshot. The former is by far the leading reason for handgun ownership. Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. For damage; within 50m against soft targets I want to say it goes 7.62 >.45 > 9mm. With the continuation of the pussification of America we see so many in posotions of power making decisions that follow the continuation of that thinkinhg. For this reason, jacketed hollow point (JHP) ammo is the only realistic choice for those who carry a handgun for self-defense. Select the option or tab named Internet Options (Internet Explorer), Options (Firefox), Preferences (Safari) or Settings (Chrome). If we had had 45acp in the hands of the FBI in most every one of these complete inept foul ups they would likely have never happened and the debate would only be Glock or 1911 45 acp. Patrick points out that there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support voluntary, life-threatening actions against an officer for 10 to 15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed. As a non operator and someone who cant get to the range much an article I read made sense to me as simple as it may seem. You can have all the knockdown power in the world but unless you place it thats going to do the most damage then it doesnt matter if its a 9 millimeter or 45. The pool of cartridges in the study are grouped which makes the data integrity less reliable but each group of larger calibers exhibit significant percentage better lethality. The Human Torso Test. WebAs shown in Fig. Supposedly he is firearms and forensic expert with the Rhode Island State Crime Laboratory. Sit back and take a deep breath and pray that if I am ever involved in a use of force criminal trial, pray like mad that this Marine is NOT called as an Expert Witness because I do not think there is enough toilet paper in a courthouse to clean up the mess this guy is going to make from his testimony. Somebody needs to vet their sources of information and also use a little common sense. The sheriff convinced the county to issue all the deputies glock 9mms to standardize the weapons and ammunition within the department. Because of the impracticality of training for headshots, this examination of handgun wounding relative to law enforcement use is focused upon torso wounds and the probable results. 9mm and 45 ACP are popular for all the reasons listed above. With proper shot placement, I can make my .22 a rock star. Ask deerhunters. Either work for me, and if I had to choose only one it would be 9mm just for the capacity. Rookie year. ), and I can buy twice the ammo and get twice the practice. A pilot was shot and killed by a .45acp in WWII. THE FOWDYFIVE IS THE LORDS CALIBER!!! CAN I GET AN AMEN?!? (that was actually a thing btw, Im not Walked closer and finished it with a 44 round between the eyes. You are up close and personal with this guy. Its unlikely Id ever have to shoot at anything other than paper targets. Hogwash!! And while its not the final word on wound ballistics, its an important contribution to what should be an ongoing discussion. You have renewed my faith in man. I was in the military for 15 years Ive been through several handgun changes. Whats more, a temporary cavity measures volume that has been stretched, not volume that has been destroyed. .45 ACP (230gr) One of the main reasons why military personnel and many LEOs made the switch to 9mm handguns was because of the deeper bullet penetration. I imagine humans are the same. For gun owners, this means that, when you fire a brutally powerful weapon, its going to shove you backwards as well as fly up. That meant that the tip didnt just bore straight through him, but rather that the whole length of the projectile rotated over and over through Scalises body, ripping a wider hole and distributing a bigger shock wave throughout his bones and tissue. So they downvote actual biological functions here. The wider bullet also creates a bigger cavity in whatever it passes through. They have to show the bean counters proof for the money to fund the switch of caliber. A .50 Desert Eagle is no good if you cannot carry it and get it out and shoot it accurately and fairly quickly, no matter what the knock-down power if you were able to hit anything with it. He didnt get more than three feet from the bathroom. I carry a Glock 19 with 15+1 and am quite crafty with it. My point being, is animals dont always die the same. career to carry a Glock 9mm. Anyone using the term bullets to discuss weapon capacity knows little about firearms and has no business writing policy.on them. While massive trauma to the circulatory system can cause incapacitation, this takes time. Episode 424 is the perfect companion to this post because we discuss caliber and it's relation to hit factor! Like John Saunders, I also used a M1D scoped. I checked him out, and he's legit as far as that title is concerned and where he works. False. Another reason why in war officers loved the 45 as for close infighting it usually too just 1or2 shots to land the enemy on the ground. Trailing was easy in snow, but took nearly a mile to put down with another shot low through the heart. Basically what I'm saying is the .50 is almost the same size as .45 and the tissue damage is near the same. .40 S&W I carry 180 grain HP. Request product info from top Ammunition companies. Web45 ACP Ammo | 45 ACP Ammo for Sale | Ammunition Depot 3/2/2023 ON SALE Ammunition Bulk Ammo Bulk 223 Ammo Bulk 9mm Ammo Bulk 45 ACP Ammo Bulk 380 Ammo Bulk 308 Ammo Bulk 7.62x39 Ammo Bulk 22 LR Ammo Bulk Pistol Ammo Bulk Rifle Ammo Bulk Shotgun Ammo Handgun Ammo 9mm Ammo 380 Ammo 45 ACP Ammo 38 Special Even long range shots! Of the nearly 250 million guns owned by Americans at that time, somewhere between 40 and 50 million of them were handguns. Its disturbing to me that we give up performance for comfort. I was a PA-C in the military. Hollow points also create a larger temporary cavity. Different bullets and guns have different patterns. The fifteen round magazine contributes to the spray and pray thinking while the 1911 makes one concentrate on placing the shot. Let us know your thoughts in the comments below! For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. round, you can see all three effects. When it does occur, it is not a significant factor in wounding. The P227 Tacops holds 14 rounds in the mag and 1 in the chamber so 15 rounds is similar to the Glock. I still carry a Ruger P-97 in 45 ACP caliber. The pistol with speed loaders will get me to the riffels then game over if not over yet. I know they dont keep records like this; but if you could count all the rounds fired in a battle, and how many kills were made by each caliber; would that not be a better indicator of the efficiency of the caliber. If I wanted to hit a little harder, I would maybe look for a WC .45 mold in the 220 to After hours of research, I ordered a Glock .357 sig. Browse our site today and place your order with confidence. A good hit from either will wreck an adversarys day . He kicked in the door and she was able to disarm him ( He was lying next to the bathroom door. In most courtrooms today a good lawyer will take you apart for shooting a home invader more than one time if you hit him with the first shot in other words you wounded him with the first shot why did you keep shooting? Thats a problem, because the force that continues to propel the bullet has essentially been wasted, not transferred to the target. Think of hitting a person in the chest with a broom handle, then picture striking the same spot with a 5 lb. and manufacturers. Well, depends on whom you ask. A sniper friend said once if bigger is better throw bricks he was using a 243 cal not a 300 win mag nor a Lupa 338. Your story reinforced thisas civilian in counters are closer that usual police work. There are a number of factors involved, including physical, psychological and physiological, but human bodies are much more durable than is commonly believed. 15 round magazine is better than a 7 round magazine. The 9mm leaves the muzzle on average at 1100 feet per second, NOT 1500. Train, train train and when your done. You're Dead: 5 Deadliest Bullets In The World They're just as important as the gun that fires them. Never had a jam up firing many different kinds of ammo. The .9mm, took3 rounds to the chest and he never even paused. Reality. If you find yourself in a legitimate self-defense scenario, you will likely not have the opportunity nor the wherewithal to take a careful and well-aimed shot at your assailant's head. interacts online and researches product purchases So for over a couple hundred years size mattered in stopping power, or say incapacitating an opponent. After receiving this wound, Platt initiated a devastating attack upon the surrounding FBI agents, killing two (including Agent Dove) and severely wounding two more. Clothing fibers can wrap the nose of a projectile, preventing expansion. Maybe if you were trying to make 100+ yard shot thatd make a little difference. Not so with rifles with muzzle velocities of 2800-4000 fps, depending on the caliber. The answer is Yes. Ive been training for 50+ years and continue to do so. It might be bigger, but bigger isnt always better. Can someone comment on this? At 10-20 yards I want a .45. It can also destroy your aim, and the strongest bullet on earth is useless if it doesnt hit the bad guy coming at you. Id use either! Platt was killed at the end of the gunfight, but not before unleashing deadly mayhem. Also, the 9mm cartridges are less expensive. This is why officers typically carry as many shoulder weapons as possible in their cars. Following the incident, significant changes were made to the firepower carried by agents, the body armor they wore and the incident response training they received. However, in early 2015 the door was cracked open, allowing them to choose Glock 19's (chambered in 9mm) instead of their larger counterpart. You have bo clue what youre talking about other than maybe your steel target fell over a little easier with a heavier bullet at the range. The original design and purpose of the 1911 45, was perfect for its knock down power. Just carry what YOU feel most comfortable with and shoot the best with as shot placement is most important. While psychological factors incapacitate more assailants than physiological factors, they are also the primary reason for a failure to incapacitate. We can, however, find the most destructive round we can handle and train with it regularly. 45 standard velocity is 850 to 900 fps, NOT 500 fps. But honestly, if you cannnot conceal a 1911 you cant conceal a G19.. Thats a bs statement, I know this because I carry concealed and my 1911 conceals just as well as a single stack 9mm compact. By now, people should have realized that it is 100% personal opinion and preference. Anyway, stay tuned we shall wait and see. And the quicker the better when someones fanning a gun at you. People like the OP of the TIFU have been shot right above their heart and lungs, with .223 and despite a nasty, nasty exit wound and the shot placement, walked it off. The door has been opened and shut for good on John M. Browning's classic 1911 design. It was a contact shot into the center chest on a sleeping target. I have been shooting for 50 years now. Im an athletic guy so handling the recoil is not too bad. Do Not Sell My Personal Information. I think it is more the exception than the rule. Glad you are doing well. Before he did this there was almost as many different firearms within the department as deputies. 158 gr 0.38" Special P and 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullets will penetrate both sides of a human skull. Thanks. Para Ordnance 12-45, officer size 1911 .45acp with 12 or 14 rd mags. True enough, but the dead enemy will not lie there or sit-up and shoot or pull the pin on a grenade on you as the wounded enemy might. Should be Marine Commanders Have.. Each of the operators has his own preference. 9mm, I carry 147 grain Hp. I am at a loss for words as I read the above two paragraphs like literally at a loss for words. This story of a Chicago-suburb police officer should answer that one for you. It would be nice if it were that simple but of course its not. They should provide officers who can control the larger weapons a choice about which pistol they are permitted to carry. Well my neighbor finally bought the pistol from him and turned around and qualified with it in front of the other deputy. This study is still referenced time and again for its information about wounds inflicted by grenade and shell fragments, but what it says about handgun bullets doesnt fit the bigger r always better narrative, so that parts been buried and forgotten. This would give them an edge regarding tissue displacement/destruction during a shooting incident where any advantage, however slight, would be welcome. Mabe you are just faster and things work out like the movies. Only high-velocity rounds (those with an impact velocity of 2,000 feet per second or more) with soft or hollow points reliably offer fragmentation. On the other hand, a .22 that you can carry easily and put into operation quickly and shoot accurately is probably not a good defense gun/round because to do enough damage requires brain-shot accuracy with each shot. All of this leads directly to the question of handgun wounding factors: the effectiveness of a handgun, lethality by caliber, and stopping power are all important considerations when purchasing a firearm for self defense. During the shootout, Special Agent Jerry Dove fired a lightweight, high-velocity 9mm round that struck murder/armored car robbery suspect Michael Lee Platt in the upper right arm. At 8yoa my dad taught me to shoot with a 1911. Sorry for the lengthy comment just my humble opinion. Everywhere else, you have only a chance of incapacitating your target. Plus: How to contact us. Massive blood loss is much more likely with deep penetration and damage to vital organs. What I saw in Korea during the Korean War was that the .45 ACP was the most deadly After the FBI, he served as a Massachusetts Deputy Inspector Generaland is currently a deputy sheriff for Plymouth County, Massachusetts. I like a simple .45 +P with a lot of lead. JP-Thank you for your real life documentation. I have shot many different calibers. Bottom line, if you come at me and I shoot you with my 9 mm or my 45, or my 380, its going to hurt like hell! Though the patient survived and only had a small wound, he suffered extensive contusions throughout his lungs. Studies based on law enforcement shootings that are available to us show that only one or two solid torso hits can be expected at best. Im no expert but i know how it feels to be in a shoot out, first of all when it goes down you better have some kind of firearm i dont care if its a P shooter, 2nd the person will be placed in a situation where they will have to make a business decision when here a pop coming from you. Riley, love your artical. G19 vs custom 1911 equals a big price difference. Damage: 22. Ultimately, your selection of a caliber should be based first on the penetration, and second on the unexpanded size of the round. I like the P227 better. In this article, we will present what we believe to be the most credible information regarding wound ballistics from studies conducted by the FBIs Firearms Training Academy in legendary Quantico, Virginia. Then you missed. 9mm Luger now offers select projectiles that are, under identical testing conditions, outperforming most premium line .40 S&W and .45 Auto projectiles tested by the FBI. This pits apples to apples and will once and for all lay to rest all this ludicrous debate. You may be knocked down and have to squeeze off a once and last shot to save you life. It goes in a like a nail.. 2 from 15 ft, 2 from 25 ft, jumping to 2 from 50 ft. And 2 from 100ft. I am older now, living in the city. Penetration of 7" pine boards for various pistol calibres: Illustrative penetration capabilities of a 30-06 full -jacketed rifle bullet at a velocity of 2700 ft/s and at a range of 200 yd: 1" of armour plate 7" of gravel 4.5" of brick 4" of concrete 32" of oak wood 6.5" of dry sand 7" of moist sand 26" of loam 24" of clay 19" of loose earth 60" of 1" pine boards, Continue reading here: General wound ballistic concepts, FREE Military Tough 6-in-1 Tactical Survival Knife, Free 2nd Amendment Gun Rights Silver Coin, Green Beret Master Sergeant Home Security Checklist, Winning Plays Texted To Your Phone That Comes Directly From An Elite Team Of Sharps, Ballistics Theory Straight Line Muzzle To Target, Internal External and Terminal Ballistics, High Standard Pistols - Firearms identification, Drop In Auto Sear - AR15 to M16 Conversion.
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