Not everyone knows how to do mud and lathe it's so old school plus it wears you out, ive been a setter for 27 yrs and I have yet to go back to one of my showers I installed using perma base or durock, with a liner, i have started using waterproofing such as redguard or aqua-defense. Do new devs get fired if they can't solve a certain bug? Wedi showers feature a pre-sloped base that is already installed. Various products can be used to waterproof shower walls such as water-resistant drywall and cement backer boards. The cement board can also become weakened and start to flake away when it absorbs moisture, causing ugly spots and patches to start appearing on the wall. With Wedi products, the compound curves are easy to produce quickly. If you are laying tile on floors that are wavy or out of level, self-leveling underlayment is a great solution. I used this to seal a 3 1/2 by 6 1/2 foot shower with 7 foot walls. Here are the fundamentals of tile installation over cement board. Firstly, it is important to ensure the wall is adequately prepared and that it is smooth, flat and free of defects. It may take more than 1 beer:). However, a cement board is generally easier and less expensive to replace if a repair is needed. Since the existing wall board will be removed, I'd prefer to go a little extra and install a water proof cement board type base so the tile has a solid substrate even if it were to get wet, such as from a plumbing leak, or from infiltration on an exterior wall (as unlikely as that might be). Since my guys and I will be doing this for the first time next week, I 'd like to take advantage of your 'learning curve.' This will ensure that the coating sticks to the cement board. Thinset with a latex acrylic modifier is best for interior projects, but if youre installing outdoors, you should use thinset with a polymer modified (PM) compound for greater moisture resistance. Step 7: Cut the Tile. Kerdi-Shower-T/-TS/-TT is a prefabricated sloped shower tray with integrated Kerdi waterproofing. The cement board needs to be clean, free of debris, and dry. The site is called floorelf.com. Needed to interject a little "amateur humor. To create a watertight shower assembly, we installed Schluter's Kerdi membrane over the drywall, just as we would for tile.Write by:. Install an Uncoupling Membrane Between Concrete and Tile. What changes do you suggest to make Bathroom looks more updated? Your email address will not be published. This thread is 9 years old and it's the Hardi board that's thirsty not the Kerdi. It is important to overlap the edge of the membrane so that it covers slightly more than half of the drywall behind it. Well, DH said he had virtually no time to work with the stuff before it dried out, so he switched from my spritz bottle to a sponge. Hi.I have a unique situation. You still use metal lath, but then mix bags of powder and pour the soupy mix onto the floor. When cleaning thinset off of Schluter membranes, the manufacturer recommends using a wet sponge and taking care to avoid any scoring or inconsistencies on the surface of the membrane. To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. It costs more but it;s worth it for the ease of install IMO. . I've never had a failure. If youre not careful, the boards can also leave behind abrasive sandy crumbs that can cause damage to your shower base or tub. It also features fleece webbing that allows for effective anchoring into thin-set mortar. Ready to join the 100,000+ homeowners matched with pros? Dean, our tile consultant, says glass mat backer board is his first choice due to the ease of installation, cost, and because his workers like it. This is the traditional tile backer. With that said, lets take a look at the importance of choosing the right tile substrate, the options you have, and which tile underlayment material you should choose Kerdi Board or cement board? First, its super lightweight compared with the rest. In general, the Schlter system is typically more expensive than a cement board, and some people may find this an attractive option for its long lasting, easy to maintain qualities. "thanks in advance :-) I know so little about this stuff, but when I watch videos (made by schluter-kerdi) everything looks so tidy and perfect - maybe that's not realistic'''" - Lisa Jasper It should look better than that and it's hard to tell but the wall stud spacing looks extreme and more than 16" I could not see if the screw heads where covered in the photos and in the one picture you can see that the screw and washer fitting where not covered. Please feel free to reach out to our Product Support Team at 1-800-992-6273 if you need anything. I will say that to is easier to put the membrane over drywall than cement board. is that because water doesn't really hit that area?" - Lisa Jasper That's pushing it but should be fine. A mortar wall is better and can be customized easier. rev2023.3.3.43278. Step 2: Determine the room's center. Greenboard is the same as regular drywall. There is definitely skill & planning required to doit right. But I can't give you a +1 because telling someone to mortar all the walls in a large shower is like telling them to make an ice sculpture. Do you have any pictures? We waterproof the outside the hardiboard in 99% of the install with something like redgard. Do the prefab Schluter niches like the double unit 12 by 28shelf have a built in pitch to the bottom and middle shelves to drainoff water as shown in niche that you built in that thread? Additionally, you can use KERDI-BAND around corners, seams, and joints to help with a waterproof installation. Tile Shower SurroundCement Backerboard Location? And we are using a drippy mixture, it slides off the trowel. The fastest method [for me and possibly other dilettants] is to stroke the knife at a diagonal to the comb marks, top down, center out, pushing all the air before you with short, overlapping strokes.-Thinset needs to be pretty darn wet: Needs to stay put when combed, but should be soft and shiney. you should still water proof with a liquid membrane product like RedGuard. Should I redo this wall to avoid a mold sandwich? That would tell him where the edge of the framing needs to be. If you preorder a special airline meal (e.g. Kerdi Board panels have a number of other advantages: they can be cut to size using an ordinary utility knife, can be glued or screwed into place, and are very lightweight. Shouldn't take too long, maybe an hour or so. If you do not already have the hardi up, I recommend using real cement board (Hardi is a fiber-cement) or drywall. Problem with very thick cement board/ tile/bullnose edge, Steam Shower Slip Joint Detail - The secret is in the boarding stage. Need help liner vs liquid membrane question. if you go with vapour barrier, then cement board. Cut the Kerdi membrane to size using a utility knife or scissors. My understanding is that Schluter-Kerdi, being a sheet topical membrane, recommends just going with regular drywall instead of cement board but you can certainly use cement board as the substrate. Also are you saying that you wet ("booking the Kerdi") the Kerdi, as well? You are wise to use a cement board. Thanks. RedGard On Hardibacker Board. Depending on factors such as room temperature, humidity, and ventilation in the area, this could take anywhere from 1 to 3 days. When I tried to use the edge of my trowel [per schlutter video] I could see I was pulling a lot of the 'felt' off the backer. After priming, use an approved adhesive to adhere the KERDI membrane to the drywall, making sure the edges are well sealed and joints are tight.if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[468,60],'remodelormove_com-medrectangle-4','ezslot_12',156,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-remodelormove_com-medrectangle-4-0'); A successful installation of KERDI requires well-prepared surfaces and a proper application, so take the time to properly prime the drywall before installation. This makes Kerdi Board suitable for a wide variety of interior applications, including kitchen countertops. Sure, you can do it.just be sure to "spritz" or wet the hardi thoroughly before.it's pretty "thirsty.". By clicking Post Your Answer, you agree to our terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy. When installing KERDI with unmodified thin-set mortar over particularly dry and porous substrates, it is recommended to wet the substrate first, in order to help prevent premature drying or skinning of the thin-set mortar. If you are good with a trowel and understand how to set up and use screeds as a guide for leveling or forming the mortar, pouring a traditional mortar bed may be a good alternative to tile backer board, especially on uneven or sloping floors. FRC board tends to be more moisture-resistant than gypsum board and is best suited for outdoor projects such as showers or tub surrounds. It is lightweight and made of expanded polystyrene. We were using a 3/16 x 5/32 trowel, probably to small. The taping knife at a low angle makes an enormous difference, and I'm very grateful for that hint. Using modified thinset on KERDI can be tricky and in some cases, it can cause issues. x 33 ft. Waterproofing Membrane: Kerdi-Board 1/2 in. Spacers are the next step. A quality underlayment will also serve as a waterproof barrier between the subfloor and the tile surface. It is important to waterproof Hardie board to make it more water-resistant, as well as to protect the materials from the elements. Water-resistant gypsum board, or green board, was used in the past as a tile backer but is no longer recommended, mainly because better products are available. Is this overkill? Ditra is a 1/8-inch thick polyethylene membrane with a layer of anchoring fleece on the underside and a grid of square cavities on top. While cement board may be the most common and widely-known tile substrate, Kerdi Board is giving it a run for its money. Blocking should be constant across this area when openings are larger than your fist. Maybe try another brand of thinset? My floor tiles are 2" x 2"." - Lisa Jasper No - you can not use Kerdi Board on the floor. See the foam bench and the corners. Kerdi membrane is a waterproofing material that is designed to be used in wet areas such as bathrooms and showers before tiles are installed. We are DIYers who have already remodeled one bathroom successfully, but this is our first time using The Schluter shower system. Following these steps will help ensure that your shower space is properly sealed, and thus that the cement board is well protected from moisture. Step 1: Measure the area. Regardless, cement board is a great, trusted tile substrate that will work well on both walls and floors. Given the complexity, its easy to see why even experienced tile setters avoid dry-pack mortar and use backer board instead when they can. As a contractor, I have been using Kerdi since it came out. LONDON. Thanks Paul! Houzz utilise des cookies et d'autres technologies de suivi similaires pour personnaliser mon exprience utilisateur, me proposer du contenu pertinent et amliorer ses produits et services. I can take a bit of it off the wall and roll it into a ball. Set ceramic and stone tile over the KERDI membrane with unmodified thin-set mortar, including large format tiles. What's the difference between a power rail and a signal line? Most of the entries in the NAME column of the output from lsof +D /tmp do not begin with /tmp. To line niche shelves, for instance. You'll know the RG is dry when it turns reallllly dark bright red as opposed to the pinkish color when applied. Stack Exchange network consists of 181 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. Start by cleaning the cement board with a mineral oil soap; this will help reduce mold and mildew growth throughout the life of the shower. The main issue caused by non-waterproof cement boards is the eventual warping and damage to the tiles, making it difficult and costly to fix without removing all the tile and starting over. Additionally, it is important to waterproof cement board before tiling, as the grout and tiles can help keep the board watertight. For the floor I make a dry mix mud base and then the Kerdi membrane. In my. Site design / logo 2023 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. Ideally the DalSeal TS would fold into the gap between the wall and ceiling concrete board. Je peux rejeter les cookies non essentiels en cliquant sur Grer mes prfrences . You're correct if you use the shluter kerdi membrane you do not use a vapour barrier since it creates a sandwhich effect that doesn't allow the substrate . Home Improvement Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for contractors and serious DIYers. New England. Euler: A baby on his lap, a cat on his back thats how he wrote his immortal works (origin? A 1/2-inch thick, 3 x 5 foot sheet weighs just 7-1/2 pounds, compared with 45 pounds for a similar size sheet of cement board. When it comes to selecting thinset for cement board, there are a few important factors to consider. As far as the tile/prep work, you are right that he is shifting the blame. How "tidy" does the kerdi band need to be? The completed assembly takes the place of more traditional backer board when installed over 3/4-inch wood subfloors. I agree that gypsum seems very questionable anywhere in the wet areas of a shower. They are square. It is also essential that cement board joints and fasteners be sealed and waterproofed with the Kerdi Fix sealant to help prevent water from leaking into the wall and floor cavities. Send us an email: , What type of thin-set mortar should I use when installing Schluter, Using a Prefabricated Shower Tray and Ramp. The big issue with cement board is that the thinset will skin over really quickly. All it takes is the right preparation. There are many different types of underlayment to choose from, but they all serve the same purpose. ), Schluter SET, ALL-SET, FAST-SET or an unmodified thin-set mortar is recommended. (3ft-3in wide). Can you remove tile from Kerdi membrane? I still wet the walls first. However, the answer you provided above suggests that the OP could omit a waterproof membrane, that I. DensShield is one common brand. A 1/2-inch thick, 3 x 5 foot sheet weighs just 7-1/2 pounds, compared with 45 pounds for a similar size sheet of cement board. Furthermore, if you're working in an older home KERDI-BOARD fits better than cement board in odd spaces. Putting this stuff on walls is difficult and time . But a mortar bed does have advantages. What I would be most scared off is the fact that no inside or outside corners appear to have been used. The difference between the phonemes /p/ and /b/ in Japanese. Then cement, sand and water are mixed together to a crumbly consistency and floated over the lath to form a flat surface. Yup! I think I'll try using the thinned mixture of Redgard and then try the Kerdi membrane again. It is also widely available and a relatively inexpensive option approximately $10 for a 3-foot by 5-foot sheet. This creates a strong, waterproof tile backer that also functions as an uncoupling membrane. Builder saying he doesn't want to put my trim tile in here. How to follow the signal when reading the schematic? Is it suspicious or odd to stand by the gate of a GA airport watching the planes? Actually if you watch any pros work (not on crappy shows) on TV you will see them use backer board 99% of the time. Some being easier to work with than others. If you want added info there's an old Kerdi thread here. It only takes a minute to sign up. Since the existing wall board will be removed, I'd prefer to go a little extra and install a water proof cement board type base so the tile has a solid substrate even if it were to get wet . if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[728,90],'remodelormove_com-mobile-leaderboard-2','ezslot_25',167,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-remodelormove_com-mobile-leaderboard-2-0');Waterproofing should be done prior to the installation of any tile including behind the shower tile. The niche' intermediate shelf isn't actually attached, to enable specific placement for each unique tiling application. Will be replacing tub shower combination with tiled shower in my home. Cut the shower tray to size. Do I have to use Kerdi tape with Ditra membrane? I used this to seal a 3 1/2 by 6 1/2 foot shower with 7 foot walls. An extra layer of thinset is then added to the surface of the cement board to adhere the tiles in place. Properly waterproofed Hardie board should last for many years. Jessica considers herself a home improvement and design enthusiast. . Kerdi-Board panels allow the installer to prepare and create a broad range . What are the differences between "paperless drywall" and "cement board"? Thanks to all for the feedback. Once the primer is completely dry, use a roller or brush to apply a coat of your chosen KERDI membrane adhesive over the entire surface of the wall, overlapping the edges slightly for full coverage. Cement board is a mineral-based board, usually 30 inches by 60 inches, that is used as a lower, dimensionally stable surface for installing ceramic tile, porcelain tile, or stonework. I don't want to use the Ditra membrane product but rather tiles directly over the cement boards. I used 1/2 Hardibacker board over the studs and then used the Kerdi membrane over the Hardi. Schluter approves their waterproof Kerdi membrane over drywall. We sponge water onto the cement board. This allows for future compression and an area at the corner where things are more forgiving. x 60 in. Aquadefense is approved by IAPMO for use as a shower pan liner, but be sure to check your local building codes, as some areas of the country still require the PVC liner. You don't want to block off the end of the air chanel and trap half a sheet worth of air under there.-Not paying attention to the direction of my knife. This will help protect the cement board from water damage, and is often a specific type of coating designed for use with cement boards. Why do small African island nations perform better than African continental nations, considering democracy and human development? You provide the pitch during the tile set. Then you can apply a thin layer of KERDI-FIX to the board, the membrane over top . When screwed to the framing, thin strips of cement board fracture more easily than thin strips of fiber-cement. Using self-leveling underlayment takes careful prep work. Make sure the floor is level in the shower. there should be a small gap between the backer board and the tub. In the worst case, it's OK to cut the Kerdi, remove the damaged section, scrape up the thinset from the areas, and set a new piece of Kerdi. My idea is to block in and install the tub in the existing corner, erect the new wet wall, and use hardi-backer to shim the wall out over the tub flange, then apply kerdi over the whole thing.Does kerdi take offense at being installed over hardi? Install the drain adapter, if needed. Building Panel: Price $ 119 00 $ 202 06 $ 279 00. I barely touch it with my hands before going to the tape knife. Good luck with your project. #2 - Your suggestion has plenty of merit though. A complete schluter shower kit is like $700-$900 depending on the size - this includes the pitched foam shower pan. Once you have determined the type of thinset, its important to also consider the weather conditions during installation. We tried adding water to the thinset, we tried . The type of bonding mortar used to apply KERDI must be suitable for the substrate and must penetrate and engage the membrane fleece. The Kerdi-Line prefab pans and drains make me feel way more comfortable with the waterproofing. Once this is done, continue the installation by following the directions for the particular Kerdi product being used. And how do you keep too much water from interfering with the adhesion in the second scenario?Thanks!! Cement boards are typically capable of withstanding larger amounts of water, while a Schlter system is designed to hold up well only in dry conditions. Sweeby-Can you clarify- I undestood that the thinset would tend to dry out from the thirsty hardi or skim over from the air; so how does booking the Kerdi help with the first? ), Minimising the environmental effects of my dyson brain, Finite abelian groups with fewer automorphisms than a subgroup. These multifunctional tile substrate and building panels are thus perfect for creating bonded waterproofing assemblies with tile coverings. It could take longer if the space is particularly wet or humid. We mixed the thinset, it wasn't as smooth as the utube video, but it was close, and we gave it ten minutes. Why you use cement board? There is a product called Kerdiboard you might want to look into. One thing I do like fibercement (Hardie) for is when I need thin strips of cement board. If you can paint a wall, you can use RedGard. Hardie board is thirsty, but that's way too fast. Waterproofing cement board is relatively simple and there are several different waterproofing products available. Cement board is known to be very heavy and somewhat difficult to cut. Go with smaller bags or only mix half. Cement board is typically used in wet areas, such as bathrooms and areas with a lot of moisture, because it is waterproof and provides a level of protection from water damage and long-term moisture exposure. With cement board as a substrate, the key is to ensure proper installation of the membrane. Project Type: Tile / Category: Bathroom. The back side of the drywall fails and it is just as bad or worse than if it had an issue on the tile side. I want to mount a cast iron bathtub, but not pull down my 1905 plaster and lath. Learn more about Stack Overflow the company, and our products. Yes. x 5-ft. and 3 x 5-ft. sheets of cement board are sized for efficient use around bathtubs and showers. It is easier to cut than cement board, it is mold resistant, and it has a built-in moisture barrier. This liquid waterproofing solution does more than keep water away, it also promotes tile adhesion and prevents cracking. This allows the cement to properly hydrate, resulting in To ensure the floor is clean, wipe it with a wet sponge. The cement board core itself is not waterproof, but it can withstand water without falling apart. Portland cement-based unmodified thin-set mortars are dependent on the presence of moisture for hydration in order to gain strength. The back side of the drywall fails and it is just as bad or worse than if it had an issue on the tile side. Kerdi can be installed first on drywall or cement board. Caulk the gap. To line niche shelves, for instance. @JimmyFix-it - hardiboard is not really porous unless it is completely saturated. Other mistakes I was making early on:-over working the thinset. First, felt paper is stapled to the floor and covered with expanded metal lath. Step 8: Allow to dry. I imagine we could share some good stories. Since KERDI is impervious, it does not deprive the mortar of its moisture. Cement board is a good, reliable backer board that works well on both floors and walls. Self-leveling underlayment has many of the same advantages as a dry-pack mortar bed but doesnt require as much skill to install. "..2) the kerdi band isn't stuck flat -- the edges in some spots are wavy. On the 'rolling pin', it actually wasn't the kitchen kind, but rather a very heavy metal roller DH had from some sort of fabrication table. Once youre sure that the membrane is completely dry, you can then move forward with tiling. To ensure that the Kerdi is completely dry prior to tiling, inspect the inside of the membrane for any signs of moisture or condensation. Bathroom closets are often catch-alls for anything and everything remotely related to self-care. Installation. As such, many homeowners and professionals find themselves wondering whether Kerdi Board or cement board is the better tile substrate. This is often accomplished by filling any holes and cracks in the wall with appropriate spackling or patching material. In . Foam-core tile backing board has two big advantages over other backer boards. Yes, you should prime drywall before installing KERDI in order to ensure proper adhesion and a successful installation. The manual can be found here: http://floorelf.com/waterproof, I would say unless you are experienced in working with Schluter-Kerdi waterproofing membrane kit, then I would say work with an easier waterproofing approach, either liquid waterproofing or a combination of liquid and traditional waterproofing (plastic covering the wood frame). Foam-core tile backing board has two big advantages over other backer boards. We store towels, medicine, toiletry supplies, first-aid gear, massage devices, facial steamers, spare Painting your garage is a great way to improve the look of the space and make the walls easier to clean. Kerdi's systems are fairly reputable. If so, that means breaking up the floor pan. I used 1/2 Hardibacker board over the studs and then used the Kerdi membrane over the Hardi. The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? GoBoard is a kind of backer board because the main elements of a backer board are cement, silica, fiberglass, etc. Underlayment is designed to smooth out uneven areas of the subfloor and form a rigid layer that prevents the flooring from bending. It is a pliable waterproofing membrane that also doubles as a vapor retarder. Moisture resistant can cause similar problems, and there is absolutely no advantage to it. After today's tutorial, you'll gain the confidence to transform your old bathroom into a new space. Ratings (91) (5) (91) (3 . vegan) just to try it, does this inconvenience the caterers and staff? And by 'booking the Kerdi' I mean we put it in the bathtub, sprayed it with the handshower, then booked it (just like wallpaper). Ditra is manufactured in a 3'3 width and comes in various roll lengths (54sf, 150sf, and 323 sf). 4. Unlike cement boards, you can bend this material without it breaking. To get the most protection from the cement board, it should be installed in a way that ensures it is waterproof, in addition to being secured properly with the right adhesive and screws. Fixing that is not that easy though. However, you do still have to take care to waterproof the seams and the fastener penetrations to create a waterproof assembly. For indoor projects and gypsum board, thinset with a latex acrylic modifier is ideal. Once all areas have been properly waterproofed, the walls can be tiled and grouted to create a waterproof surface. Kerdi membrane prevents water damage and mold development. Kerdi board is a kind of waterproofer because these kinds of boards are made of XPS foam. If installing large format tiles (over 15"), be sure to give the Aquadefense at least 8 hours to cure first. We apply the thinset the recommended trowel, can't remember what size off the top of my head, in small sections and by the time my husband hands my the piece of membrane the thinset is not skinned over but certainly dry. #3 This is a DIY site. Personnaliser mon exprience l'aide de cookies, Landscape Architects & Landscape Designers, Outdoor Lighting & Audio/Visual Specialists, epoxy or marine paint over greenboard for my shower walls (not tile), Need advice on bathroom remodel - using hardiebacker boards, HELP! This will ensure a strong bond between the KERDI membrane and the substrate. The colour is different. I hang Kerdi on cement board and fibercement board all the time. On the downside, the cement boards are heavy, somewhat difficult to cut and can leave abrasive sandy crumbs that can damage tubs and shower bases if youre not careful. When it comes to applying KERDI, however, it is advised to use a regular thinset that includes portland cement as its main component. First, it's super lightweight compared with the rest. It allows you to easily and quickly create tile-ready elements in bathtub surrounds and platforms, vanities, showers, shelving, and much more. Keep in mind that most tile setters err on the side of caution and brush a waterproofing membrane on top of cement board when it is in wet areas like showers or tub surrounds. Such membranes typically come in a brush or a roller form and can help create a durable barrier against water infiltration. I circled one area, but there are lots of these edges." - Lisa Jasper The Kerdi band should be smooth and flat - not wavy/ "3) there is no membrane of waterproofing on the hardboard across from the "wet wall" after 5 1/2 feet up. Recovering from a blunder I made while emailing a professor, Minimising the environmental effects of my dyson brain. On the other hand, a Schlter system offers improved thermal insulation, which can help to reduce heating costs. It worked well - just like wallpapering. Hardi is definitely a "thirsty" substrate but will work, even without a primer of RedGard. that's home depot homeowner installation method. I appreciate your help and your quick response. Thanks to Mongo's earlier post, we knew we'd have to spritz the Hardi -- but found that even that wasn't quite enough. It is designed to form a waterproof layer between cement board and tiles, helping create a watertight installation.